r/leagueoflegends Oct 02 '22

This has probably been said many times, but Smite really should be immediately available as a summoner spell. You shouldn't be forced to play games without a jungler.

Riot recognizes jungle as an official role, one that is required on every team, so why are teams forced to play without one for such incredible lengths of time? Being in a position where your team is incapable of having a jungle vs a team with at least one player with smite is very imbalanced and anti-fun. It's a massive disadvantage. Seriously, help your new players get onboarded to how the game is played sooner, have less frustrating matches, and maybe even let them try the role themselves.

947 Upvotes

334

u/agrostereo Oct 03 '22

Tbh they need a full jungle tutorial implemented. I’ve played w some newer 30s recently and the jungle just isn’t taught. Many had no clue about 5 smites to upgrade even. It’s strange that Riot acknowledges jungle as a role entirely yet a new player can only find out about it through word of mouth or youtube

102

u/BPlayinMan Oct 03 '22

They should have a tutorial on everything, just like Dota. Downloaded Dota the other day and found a whole 50 parts tutorial on everything, from moving your character to managing teamfights and role-specific macro

37

u/ViPls Oct 03 '22

Dota 2 is miles ahead of League in every aspect besides popularity and esports scene

5

u/dun198 Oct 03 '22

I play both games and this just isn't true at all. For example the league patch frequency is much better than the dota one. Secondly riot is much better at communicating than valve when it comes to both games. There are many other things riot does better with league but these are just a few examples.

10

u/xXx_edgykid_xXx Oct 03 '22

eSports scene is debatable tbh

13

u/Heroiccrayfish Oct 03 '22

The international was way bigger than worlds, but I feel like that one year without a TI due to Covid unfortunately really torpedo’d the games popularity.

2

u/KingR12 Oct 03 '22

I feel like TI really fell off recently tbh.

1

u/tstrah707 Oct 03 '22

And gameplay

-4

u/Turbulent_Diver8330 Oct 03 '22

While this sounds cool, you really can just look this up on YouTube which gives creators a chance to make content. Also if you were to do role specific tutorials, I feel like the tutorials could fall out of practical relevance pretty quickly due to how the meta can shift and change. Like Ziggs being a bot laner. Would they have put mages as bot lane Carrie’s in a bot lane carry tutorial 3 years ago?

-1

u/whataremyxomycetes Oct 03 '22

also there's no fucking point in having a tutorial in this shitty ass client that can barely make games. Literally the best way to learn is to just watch vids/read guides then implement it in an actual game, you're not gonna be learning SHIT from bots anyway. Anything you need to test in-game, you're better off playing practice mode vs bots than loading into an actual game. Especially since apparently all low level games in NA/EU are bots already anyway

tutorials are fucking overrated when any game worth a damn has a community that's ready and willing to create top tier guides every time it's necessary (so it's never outdated).

-1

u/Turbulent_Diver8330 Oct 03 '22

Yes, my point exactly

8

u/Cengo789 Oct 03 '22

Speaking of tutorials, does the tutorial still give you thornmail on Ashe?

10

u/MunixEclipse Oct 03 '22

Hasn't been that way in years

4

u/texmex2306 Oct 03 '22

I was playing a chill draft game last week and auto filled jg had ZERO clue what jg meant. I was literal support and not just for my adc 😂 had to walk him through how his smite had timer and had to use 5 to upgrade to 900 (kept asking why enemy jg had the red smite icons and he didn’t) thought he had to have his unupgraded smite for dragons and barons. was a wild ride but we we won it

4

u/DerGregorian Oct 03 '22

Been around since season one and always kinda just been put off wanting to jungle because there was/is just nothing in game about how to go about it. Every resource you have to go hunt down yourself and find videos and guides about pathing, clearing camps, etc

That combined with how you’re just spending the majority of your early game experience sitting in a lane means I didn’t bother with jungle for years. Which is stupid because I absolutely love it now.

33

u/Kata_420 Oct 03 '22

why make a jungle tutorial if its gonna have to be reworked every season

49

u/lactosefree1 NA is MI (NA) Oct 03 '22

It would teach the basics. Get a buff, farm the other camps, explain the effects of everything important and emphasize smite being a finisher for the camps primarily. Players will figure out what to do when there are no more camps left to farm, you don't have to teach that. You don't have to teach the importance of dragon and herald and baron, their icons being bigger on the map shows inherently that they're more important. Other than the basics of the role, it would have to outline a champion pool that is fairly standard to jungle and perhaps have a slightly different tutorial for an early game gank jungler vs a farm to 6 jungler etc but outside of that it doesn't need to be particularly nuanced since motivated players will seek out streams etc to learn all those finer points.

-1

u/patiofurnature Oct 03 '22

Why would you use smite as a finisher at camps? I get it at dragon/baron to avoid steals, but using it as a finisher at camps would be inefficient. If you smite early, you get the full 900 damage. As a finisher, you’re wasting damage.

I’m Bronze so I’m sure I’m wrong; just want to know why.

31

u/kimi_no_na-wa Oct 03 '22

You can smite at 900hp tho, but yeah, unless you suspect there's someone waiting in a bush to steal your camp, it doesn't matter when you smite.

8

u/Tormentula Oct 03 '22

Sometimes, personally if I’m blue start I smite gromp to pull it closer to me as I finish blue, saves a lot of walking time and makes any % missing damage your champ has do more.

1

u/kimi_no_na-wa Oct 03 '22

I guess that makes sense if you can double clear gromp and blue, but if you can't, wouldn't the time saved walking be outweighed by the hp you lose (since you have less space to kite and also less patience on the gromp)

3

u/Tormentula Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

Not necessarily, kiting gromp helps but most of the time you get back to full or close to full due to the heal it gives.

I’m referring to like if blue is at 400 HP you can pull blue towards gromp, smiting at max range, finish blue pretty fast by the time it comes, then swap to doing gromp without walking at all, the heal makes it more bearable and it’s unlikely you’d get invaded level 2 unless it’s a kindred or yi if you blue leashed, you can drop a level 1 river ward if you’re in those matchups.

0

u/lightspeedx Oct 03 '22

Dude, your name

1

u/argnsoccer Oct 03 '22

If you watch fast clears or pros clear, lots of them do this. You don't even have to be able to take both at same time. As you're finishing blue, you kite it towards gromp. Smite gromp, run a lil back and kill blue. Gromp can only be actually kited by Lillia, who doesn't even care to kite gromp that early anyway. You just kite gromp for its first autos (which is what the smite and run back to blue). Then, you just sit and whack gromp. Only "kiting" would be at the end when you're finishing gromp off can move towards Wolves while finishing gromp

2

u/Heroiccrayfish Oct 03 '22

Two reasons, safety and security to make sure your important camps don’t get stolen from you, and also because smite heals so you’ll get more value from using it as a finisher rather than right off the rip.

And then as a slightly more advanced technique you can use it to smite camps as you are walking away even outside of leash range. If you have your jungle item, and the monster is below 500 hp, it will tick for damage while following you until it’s below 450 hp, so you can smite it and already be at another camp or halfway to lane to gank or whatever. Just a much more efficient use of smite that way, because monsters won’t tick below 1 hp, they have to be last hit.

1

u/patiofurnature Oct 03 '22

Ah, makes sense, thank you!

1

u/lactosefree1 NA is MI (NA) Oct 03 '22

At least for your first buff you should typically take the precaution. It's not wasting damage if you're smiting when it gets to smite damage range, it's literally saving you time fighting the camp and helps to increase your tempo. After buffs, the thing to use smite to secure will probably be crab, then objectives a la dragon and herald. But as a way to make sure you don't just get straight up gapped by your first camp being stolen and setting you back more than a level on your opponents, you use smite as an execute, not as a starter. Use it as a starter on gromp/krugs/wolves/chickens, but all other camps it should be a finisher.

2

u/nj21 Oct 03 '22

Why not? They can just redo the tutorial.

7

u/Stahlwisser Oct 03 '22

They dont even have one yet lmao

3

u/PurpleCyborg28 Oct 03 '22

The don't want to redo the tutorial

7

u/Lantami Oct 03 '22

Many had no clue about 5 smites to upgrade

Tbf, that one's on them, as this is written in the item description, and the remaining number of smites till upgrade is prominently displayed on the item's icon

5

u/agrostereo Oct 03 '22

Yes it is info available to the player, but not really intuitive to understand from a new player perspective, especially players that still read abilities

2

u/Lantami Oct 03 '22

If they read abilities, they should also read items. Especially if there's a large number on it that sometimes goes down

1

u/whataremyxomycetes Oct 03 '22

and read guides. Why rely on in-game information when community guides are always the best source of information in ANY game.

2

u/Lantami Oct 03 '22

For the more refined information I agree. But at least the basics should be available without use of outside sources. Casual players usually won't invest the time to look up something somewhere else

1

u/whataremyxomycetes Oct 03 '22

How basic are we even talking about? Because all basic information are in the game, but the very use of these info are already considerably advance. For example, a basic info would be smite doing X damage to jungle monsters, this is very clearly in the game. However, how do you use this? Is it meant for laners to secure cannons? For laners who aren't confident in their lane and wanna be able to farm the jungle on the side while getting shoved in? For a champion to permanently roam the jungle? How many of those do each game have? Are they required? Is it better or worse than having a support in both lanes?

Another thing is flash, which is my favorite example cuz it applied to me. I didn't use flash even at gold 2 because it simply didn't make sense to take it over ghost and heal, both of which have utility at a lower cd compared to flash. The very usage of flash in itself requires a deep and nuanced understanding of the game, I'd argue that even most ranked players don't even fully understand it and would probably be better served by ghost instead.

We can also talk about items, because all of their basic information are conveyed by their item description, but which ones to buy and in which order is a debate that rages even within the highest elo.

Point is, all the very basic information are already given. Anything more would just be information overload, and better learned from other sources that are more designed to teach you those information. And they're certainly not something to be learned in the middle of a freaking game.

1

u/Lantami Oct 03 '22

Point is, all the very basic information are already given.

My point is, that exactly this is NOT the case. Inhib respawn timers are not shown ingame and neither are camp respawn timers. They are adding leash range indicators this preseason, otherwise that'd also be one of my points. Stuff like this should be just shown ingame.

0

u/Select-Cucumber9024 Oct 03 '22

Imagine defending poor design couldn't be a league player

3

u/Lantami Oct 03 '22

There's enough other things you can criticize Riot for, this is not one of them. There's enough actually poor design choices that are way more valid to criticize, like fucked skill shot indicators, or abilities being affected by high/low ground, or there not being a tutorial for each role, or or or. Just don't try to criticize the few things that are actually designed decently well

1

u/Select-Cucumber9024 Oct 03 '22

ya sorry that I think that doesn't make up for how little the game actually teaches you about the role. to the point where the one working feature you pointed out is basically useless to a "jungler" who is only using in game resources to learn the role. "Imagine defending poor design couldn't be a league player" like clockwork

2

u/SquidKid47 the bestie Oct 03 '22

Instead of implementing a tutorial I guess they just decided to hold your hand through jungling every single game now. Lame.

2

u/agrostereo Oct 03 '22

Hahaha fr. I’m in favor of the changes actually. I doubt the recommended pathing will be optimal so it won’t give an advantage to anyone besides newer junglers and even then if the enemy jungler actually knows what’s happening, they can capitalize off their knowledge. However some of the changes (leash range, ward timer) are a little too training wheel imo. Maybe have it only in normals or even just vs AI like tower range is

3

u/brianbezn I AM EVIL! STOP LAUGHING Oct 03 '22

I play with a friend that has played for over a year, he is emerald rank or something in wild rift. He can't do a full clear without dying to jungle creeps. He does suck, like he is probably high iron or something, but compared to laning, it's a lot worse.

2

u/ape_shift Oct 03 '22

That sounds handless af. It is so easy to not die in jungle nowadays... I reached Dia 6 yrs ago not kiting any camp and not looking at the map until I finished it.

1

u/brianbezn I AM EVIL! STOP LAUGHING Oct 03 '22

He is very bad, but not nearly as bad on other roles. Jungle punishes some mistakes very hard, either because they are very easy not to mess up or could be abused by high skilled players. The problem is that bad players sometimes do very greedy stuff without knowing or make mistakes nobody accounted for. Having read preseason i think riot is doing some stuff i think is the right way to go, jungle paths, skill suggestions, that alone would have prevented many of his deaths. He also doesn't buy bottle or much regen when laning, it would be cool if the shop also accounted for consumables when suggesting stuff (specially for low elo players).

67

u/Burpmeister Oct 03 '22

What about the literal practice tool being level gated?

16

u/onlyirelia1 Oct 03 '22

No way practice tool is level gated, never knew that wtf

211

u/Nico_010 Oct 02 '22

spells shouldn't be a fucking progression matter.

give all spells for fuck sake, what is even the point of not having them for what? 7-10lvs?

Same with the no role queue, get that shit outta here, let players experiment the roles they want, instead of forcing the most toxic "fight your team mates before even fighting your enemies" concept, forcing you to spam your role and LITERALLY fight for you right of... playing the game? super shitty.

44

u/brianbezn I AM EVIL! STOP LAUGHING Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

Smite being locked is probably there from the time where you couldn't jungle efficiently with a level 1 account cause you needed the masteries to take less and deal more damage to jg monsters.

If they don't want to overwhelm players with choices, give players a suggestion to help them, explain them why. How it works with the item shop, maybe a bit more explanation since you are not in the middle of the game.

6

u/KasouRasetsu Oct 03 '22

One argument in favor of progression is that it might make someone more likely to pay attention to them. If a new player sees ten spells all at once, they might feel overwhelmed by the choice, or maybe they just stick with whatever two spells they initially picked. If they see five spells, then unlock a new one every couple of levels, that same player might be more likely to try them out as they are unlocked.

Of course Riot could also just implement a tutorial that doesn't suck.

3

u/darklypure52 Oct 03 '22

One biggest reason I stopped playing blind pick was the fighting over roles. If not for team builder I would had probably quit league a long time ago.

22

u/Heroiccrayfish Oct 02 '22

Exactly, thank you. I don't know why people get so uppity about this topic. There's no logical reason for the progression system to even exist, it just causes even more matchmaking issues.

12

u/MegalFresh Oct 03 '22

Riot’s logic behind locking summoner spells is to reduce trap decisions during very early player experience, I believe. Though if threads like this are any indication, it evidently doesn’t succeed at that!

19

u/mount_sunrise Oct 03 '22

it's better if they change it to unlock the most important spells first: flash, heal, smite, ignite. have a dedicated summoner spell tutorial explaining what they are, put emphasis on flash and smite, while you can use heal and ignite as explanations of offensive vs. defensive summoners, then explain what roles will tend to take what spell.

but of course, riot will probably need to make a new client/game engine first before they make a new tutorial otherwise the game will collapse, crash, burn, and self-destruct

4

u/OPconfused Oct 03 '22

I think the logic with spells based on progression is that new players won't know the difference to have it matter that much compared to all the other stuff they have to deal with, and Riot doesn't want smurfs to enjoy the leveling process to discourage smurfs / not ruin the queues for legitimate new players, who complain enough as it is when they have smurfs in their queue.

5

u/CokeNmentos Oct 03 '22

Nah because new players don't know how to jungle that's why they make it unlock later

22

u/LabHog Oct 03 '22

New players don't know how to lane either. I imagine a part of the low jungle popularity is because new players are gated from jungle long enough to get comfortable in any other role.

9

u/Sendme_Ojeda_Nudes Oct 03 '22

Laning it is way easier, that is why you have 2 - 1 - 2 and blind pick at low level: let people pick and go where they want.

5

u/LabHog Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

Yeah but we don't know that entirely, what happens if you give people smite level 1 and a basic tutorial? I mean it takes new players like a week to understand turret AI I doubt jungling is harder in that regard.

-10

u/Sendme_Ojeda_Nudes Oct 03 '22

It is clear you dont have friends that didnt play other PC games previous to LoL.

1

u/LezBeHonestHere_ Revert Kayle P/E/R Oct 03 '22

Also there's no jungling in bot games. I played bot games all the way to 30 and was already dedicated to mid/top by then because there's no reason to ever jungle in bot games.

Wild rift has jungle bots iirc so toplane is solo like it should be, which I assume would incentivize going jungle yourself. But pc doesn't.

-2

u/CokeNmentos Oct 03 '22

Nah new players do know how to lane because it's just obvious that you should go to a lane. The tutorial is literally in a lane and tells U to kill the enemy and minions

1

u/-CrestiaBell Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

So in other words you prevent them the chance at learning it?

It's far better for them to int into literal AI and at least get the base idea of jungling down than it is to just throw them to the wolves later down the line. All you're doing by gating smite behind level progression is facilitating the introduction of more KD players into the game.

And frankly, why should they even believe other aspects of the game matter on game 31 (objectives for instance) when for the previous 30+ games they played showed them those factors supposedly didn't matter at all?

4

u/CokeNmentos Oct 03 '22

Nah they aren't prevented from learning. They can still learn it after unlocking it

1

u/-CrestiaBell Oct 03 '22

The issue is by that point they then have 30+ games of bad habits and preconceived notions that they'll need to unlearn first.

1

u/CokeNmentos Oct 03 '22

Nah that's just the normal new player issue because they are just new of course they will not know everything yet and do bad habits

6

u/spoonfulofshooga Oct 03 '22

I started only a couple weeks ago so I can learn to enjoy my husband’s hobbies too and ended up doing jungle for the first time in a PvP match the other night because everyone else beat me to calling lanes. I did terrible and got berated even though I told people ahead of time I’ve never don’t the position before and asked to change. Core memory for sure.

I’ve tried practicing in a bot match but it’s just not the same. Most people just push mid to try to finish the game as quick as possible and bot matches don’t have an enemy jungler so it’s really different imo.

100

u/multire10 Oct 02 '22

You’ll get downvoted for this for God knows what reason but you’re right. Probably one of the reasons behind jungling being so unpopular is that no one is able to play it when they start the game.

50

u/Heroiccrayfish Oct 03 '22

There's no tutorial on it or any mention of neutral objectives whatsoever either.

36

u/Klaymoor11 Oct 03 '22

There actually is, just a tiny bit, but you have to go out of your way to find it. In one of the tutorials, if you walk into the jungle for whatever reason and come across any monsters, you'll get a message saying there are neutral monsters in the jungle. No further info given.

5

u/milkywayfarfaraweh Oct 03 '22

Wild Rift actually has a really nice tutorial for all roles including jungle (that explains baron and drakes), but I guess PC League’s code is too spaghetti to even implement that.

4

u/brianbezn I AM EVIL! STOP LAUGHING Oct 03 '22

Yeah, if you make jg more accessible you will have more jungle mains and when people autofill jg they will be less bad at it. Jungle is my weakest role by far, the difference on how competent i am at my strongest role vs my 4th strongest role is probably more than from my 4th strongest to jg. There is a lot that can be done that helps bring those closer without changing anything for jg mains or high skill players. Hopefully the things planned for next season do exactly that.

Sadly, the problems with jungle popularity don't end there, but it's a start.

0

u/Sendme_Ojeda_Nudes Oct 03 '22

People out there is figuring controls and champions at early levels and you want them to jungle at lv 7? When they still accidentally enter tower range?

-1

u/whataremyxomycetes Oct 03 '22

I need the good shit you guys are hitting if you think this is the reason jungling is so unpopular LMAO.

10

u/Some_Silver Oct 03 '22

Maybe they can't change it because the summoner spells are coded as minions

1

u/SpirituallyEnhanced Oct 03 '22

The minions gain the ability to smite you after changing its level

11

u/Liqhtxz Oct 03 '22

True and being forced to play Blind Pick instead of Draft until level 10 is terrible too.

7

u/patiofurnature Oct 03 '22

Is it easier to get champions now or something? I def didn’t own enough to play draft at level 10.

4

u/quzimaa Oct 03 '22

Theres 16 in free rotation, tutorial gives i think two or three for free and you get enough ip to buy a couple more. You need 20 for draft so theoretically can you play it after tutorial.

2

u/patiofurnature Oct 03 '22

Oh wow, I thought there were only 8 in the rotation. That’s not too bad, then.

3

u/quzimaa Oct 03 '22

it used to be like 8 way back but they have increased it every now and then as more champions were released

3

u/bayonetworking123 Oct 03 '22

Imagine if they had tutorials for every role

36

u/trolledwolf Oct 03 '22

The only people that would be affected by this are people that barely even know how to move their character and smurfs, which deserve every hell they can get.

So this is literally a non issue. There are better things to learn for new players than how to jungle. The game does need a jungle tutorial for when it does give you smite tho.

26

u/blaivas007 Oct 03 '22

I fucking hate OP's argument with a burning passion.

If you actually get into a game with new players that have not yet unlocked smite, you have people dying 12 times to turrets, being level 4 at minute 17 while not having leveled any skills at all with a whooping 1 cs/min score.

Imagine being so up your own ass you feel entitled to Riot making it easier to smurf and ruin countless games due to your ego and excessive toxicity bevause of the fact that you can simply create a new account if you get your smurf #8 perma'd again.

15

u/WolfAkela Oct 03 '22

This. Jungle has the highest skill floor out of all roles out there. New players shouldn’t immediately pick it up.

The skill floor for laning is simple and intuitive: hit the other guy, avoid getting hit. You’ll probably pick up accidental CS along the way, you’ll probably quickly learn not to dive.

Jungle has way too many things to know beforehand that newbies won’t know. Newbies are guaranteed to either die in the jungle even with Smite, or they back off too often. They won’t know which camp to even start, and they wouldn’t even immediately know camps spawn or respawn.

So yeah, I disagree with a lot of opinions in this topic. Riot has the right idea to lock Smite until around the level that a new player has grasped the basics, let alone be familiar with the UI.

1

u/kimi_no_na-wa Oct 03 '22

Your argument makes no sense, because you will eventually have to play jungle anyway, and laning will teach you NOTHING about jungle.

You say that newbies won't know what camp to start, or that camps respawn, but this is the stuff that would be in the tutorial.

8

u/Apprehensive_File Oct 03 '22

Laning teaches you how to move your character, buy items, and use abilities.

Remember these are actual beginners we're talking about.

-6

u/kimi_no_na-wa Oct 03 '22

So does jungling though?

5

u/Apprehensive_File Oct 03 '22

The point was that there are transferable skills, because beginners need to literally learn how to play.

You could learn those skills while jungling, but it's significantly more complex. It makes sense to learn the basics in lane, and then learn jungle.

Starting out jungling would be an absolute nightmare if you don't know how to control your character.

3

u/blaivas007 Oct 03 '22

The things a new player needs to learn, in order, are: how to win the game (destroy nexus), how to get to the nexus (destroy turrets), how to make progress (how xp, levels, gold, items work) and how their champions work. The current remade tutorial works just fine for a player to understand but... League's learning curve is incredibly steep and for an absolute majority of beginner players this progress takes at least 20-30 levels to grasp decently. Only then should a player be interested in how to make jungling work.

Also, it's very hard to make a decent tutorial for it since jungle relies heavily on champions (very few champions can jungle decently in the hands of a new player) and the ever changing pathing meta. That's the problem. Jungle is contextual. In the jungle tutorial you can't just give a specific path to follow because it WILL get outdated. You also can't remake the tutorial each year, it's not practical. Besides that, in a nutshell, jungling is just killing the closest camp and finding timers to gank. The basics are very simple but it goes very very very deep.

-1

u/kimi_no_na-wa Oct 03 '22

Again, all those things you can learn while jungling.

You think pathing meta matters in fucking newbie games?? You could literally do completely random pathing every game until like silver/gold and it wouldn't matter at all.

Barring that, a clear like Blue-Gromp-Red works on all junglers and has been viable as far as I can rememeber.

If a player wants to play jungle because their favorite pro or streamer plays it, they shouldn't be forced to lane first, just like you don't force laners to play jungle first.

4

u/blaivas007 Oct 03 '22

they shouldn't be forced to lane first, just like you don't force laners to play jungle first.

I just explained why you can't jungle without having the basics of laning first...

6

u/-CrestiaBell Oct 03 '22

I'd argue that knowing what a jungler does and why would help players at every stage of the game, even if they aren't jungling themselves.

It just might teach players to ward more efficiently and avoid overextending when the low health enemy is baiting a fight

3

u/sickreptile Oct 03 '22

most intelligent mordekaiser main

1

u/cyberjesus42 X ❤❤OTP❤❤ Oct 03 '22

It's like people don't remember when they started to play and had no clue how to play and what does what, back then I had a friend who to jungle he stayed on top the first 3 levels. There are other things that are worth the noise like the level gated practice tool that doesn't allow you to try new champs, but instead I only see people wanting the only thing that annoys smurfs gone. I hope they make some shit like phone verification for ranked mandatory.

53

u/Catfish017 Oct 02 '22

hot take - the only people that care are smurfs, and their opinions don't matter

17

u/Lipat97 Oct 03 '22

No this definitely made starting out worse lol its a whole position you cant even try as a new player

25

u/Separate-Cable5253 Oct 03 '22

Idk if you remembered when you actually first started the game you likely had no jungles.. just two 2v2 lanes and a 1v1 mid lane.

This is a normal new player experience tbh

Only people complaining about this are the people who’ve played 10 years, and they should not be on a new account anyway

8

u/cosHinsHeiR Oct 03 '22

I clearly remember thinking smite was useless since it gave nothing vs other players, and that's how most people think when they just started I guess. A mini tutorial may be ok but giving smite before 10 would change very little.

2

u/whataremyxomycetes Oct 03 '22

I wasn't taking flash even in ranked because it didn't make sense to me why you'd take a 5 minute cd that barely moves you vs ghost with 180cd and longer duration or heal with 180cd and heal + ms. I also never took smite even as a jungler because the first time I got it, I thought it dealt scaling true damage on any target but then it turns out it doesn't affect champs so I ignored it for a long time.

Any actual new player having access to these tools earlier wouldn't matter because they'd be too busy figuring a bunch of other shit out. I'm 100% sure only smurfs care about getting them early.

-6

u/Tehni Oct 03 '22

"every new player should be put at a disadvantage because I had to suffer through it when I was a new player"

Fuck outta here

5

u/bobandgeorge Oct 03 '22

It's not a disadvantage if you're playing against people that also don't have smite

1

u/Heroiccrayfish Oct 03 '22

But you are oftentimes playing against people with smite, that’s the issue.

Another problem is having people on your team who could use smite, but don’t understand what it’s used for or what a jungle position even is.

-2

u/Lipat97 Oct 03 '22

??? should be clear from the other comment that i remember how it was. I just also remember not learning jungle for years because there was no introduction to it whereas the other four roles you could just walk up and play

7

u/CokeNmentos Oct 03 '22

Nah it doesn't. Because new players don't know how to jungle

2

u/Lipat97 Oct 03 '22

Thats a problem lol I didnt learn jungle until super late because there’s no introduction to it

4

u/CokeNmentos Oct 03 '22

Even then that's good, because you need to know about lanes to know how to jungle so that you know how to help them

2

u/Heroiccrayfish Oct 03 '22

Laning and jungling are entirely different, there’s very little crossover between those roles. In fact I would say Jungle is most similar to support, and I think if the jungle was actually part of the tutorial you might capture a lot of peoples interests that don’t particularly like laning all that much (aka people who typically default to support).

1

u/CokeNmentos Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

Yeah they're so different, but 90% of jungle revolves around the laners so you have to understand them anyway

18

u/Heroiccrayfish Oct 02 '22

No that's just called a bad take. The smurfs benefit the most from this since they often get to play an uncontested jungle position.

12

u/yermammypuntscooncil Oct 03 '22

Until they are put in smurf queue after about 5 games.

1

u/Hyperly_Passive Spear and Sword Oct 03 '22

Smurf queue detects returning players really quickly now, like 2 or 3 games. Now smurf queue itself is another issue, but you aren't going to see Smurfs matching with actual brand new players.

3

u/Heelmuut Top Dog Oct 03 '22

Why would they smurf in blind pick normals below lvl 30?

2

u/harthedir Oct 03 '22

because that's the only place low elos can smurf?

-9

u/350 Oct 03 '22

you're right, that take is hot, so hot its fucking terrible

1

u/Select-Cucumber9024 Oct 03 '22

Cringe and baseless take

18

u/cakemeisting Oct 03 '22

NEACE has been saying this for years, and recently said it on one of his videos. They seriously need to put out a real tutorial also. If they just put in the importance of gold and xp about 90% of the playerbase would have improved out of sight.

13

u/memesarenotbad worlds time :( Oct 03 '22

EXTREMELY EXTREMELY RARE NEACE W

-10

u/cakemeisting Oct 03 '22

NEACE is actually very good for the majority of the community you know. How many players are ranked below Diamond 2? The community gives NEACE grief for his prices, and I noticed that Tarzaned joined the bandwagon because he disagreed with his business practices when it comes to refunds. But if we are talking about learning, or understanding the game, the the percentage of players under say D2 can really learn from NEACE, you don't have to pay for his coaching, you can easily just watch his videos on youtube.

9

u/itsr1co Oct 03 '22

My main gripe is how broad he is.

It's one thing if he's coaching top lane, even if he doesn't play those champs, he at least lanes against them and knows more. (I think, does he still mostly play top? Insert whatever role(s) he plays). He's just going to be using the same advise over and over and add some things based on the champion. Damn dude, you should have waited to use charm there, thanks for the cash though.

It'd be like Tarzaned coaching an ADC main, yeah he can say the basic shit because at his level and experience he has absorbed more info on what is "right", but why pay Tarzaned to coach your ADC games when you can get an actual ADC player?

Also having looked at his videos just now, I guess he's fine with the click bait but he seems to be pretty stagnant at 20-30k views, people who want to learn don't watch "CLIENT GOES 1V9 AFTER I TELL THEM THIS ONE SECRET RIOT DOESN'T WANT YOU TO KNOW", they want to watch "Coaching Silver Riven vs Camille" so they can get some insight into the matchup and general gameplay tips for Riven. I fully understand that he's just trying to get as much money as possible, he's likely to drop to hundreds/a few thousand views with more niche titles, but why would I click through every single video to see if he's coaching some player 3x lower than my rank on my champion just to spend 30 minutes going "You should play aggressive", "You needed to back off", "Gogogogo he's low", "You had that if you used X".

With the prices, you can't blame NEACE for taking the money, people pay it so I genuinely can't fault him for taking advantage of terrible players, but from what I've seen it's genuinely terrible/new players. Camera lock, low APM, 0 champion knowledge, extremely uncomfortable taking risks, etc. Basic shit you learn from practise, other basic shit he tells you is learnt from all the millions of videos and guides online. NEACE cannot give you anything for hundreds of dollars that guides can't give you for free. It's honestly like investing advise, do you pay this guy $2,000 for his secret strategy for making millions from the stock market, or do you start low and search for basic shit about investing and take on all the free information available? I guess NEACE knows the answer.

1

u/oppadoesntlikeyou Oct 03 '22

While I agree with your points, I want to nuance that by saying that a lot of coaching videos and "great coaches" in the game hide their vods behind paywall and patreons, which is a pain in the ass.

NEACE puts free videos every day with general macro of the game that anyone can pick up without:

1- Not understand a word that someone like LS says due to his speech mannerisms and excessive overblown reactions about clicking and pockets

2- Dealing with Gordom Ramsay's wannabees that think treating their clients as dumb as possible is helping them improve (NEACE knows how to read a client and is somewhat understanding of the clients, he rages at students try to be smart-asses and such, but in general, he is pretty chill.)

3- Back-seat gaming (Living Coach) has no room for deep analyses as you react to action on spot, and lots of players have this feeling that when you pay for Neace Coaching, you pay to PLAY with HIM and have a decent talk, not to hardocre improve your mechanics and get this secret recipe to climb through your ranks.

In general, I think NEACE has merits in standing where he is now popularity-wise due to his approach to the game and the general audience he dared to open his content.

1

u/cakemeisting Oct 05 '22

I think the problem with the community is that a lot of them are jealous of NEACE's success. But my comment above is only related to the skill level of the coaching that he gives out. Remember that 95%(?, choose your own relative percentage here) of the playerbase are bad at the game. Even though players think that he says simple stuff, this is exactly the stuff that his client's need :) It's true that NEACE cannot give you much more (other that a custom game vod) than guides that you can get for free. However people in general are lazy. They can't be bothered sifting through all of the information. They are low elo, they probably don't know which information to choose from the reams of vods on Youtube and they want NEACE to give it to them in a personalised session. So good on him for creating that market, I can't fault him there. Yes his titles are becoming more and more clickbait, I guess he is hoping that his audience watch every video. Back in the days he just put the point of the video in the title. Gotta make bank I guess.

One more thing. If I had the choice between a Master tier level (or lower) ADC, or Tarzaned coaching me on ADC, I would choose Tarzaned.

4

u/GeniusOrang Oct 03 '22

while I do agree that summoner spells like smite should'nt be gated by levels, I don't quite see the issue with not having a jungler when playing at such low levels, I don't feel like games at that level will be decided alone by if they have a jungler or not... hell if we talking about legitimate new players they don't even know what a normal lane is. So all and all I get why you'd rant about summoner spells being level gated but I feel its a bit for the wrong reason imo.

2

u/Rynalds Oct 03 '22

I low-key forgot about these spells being locked, I been only paying WR and since there all spells are unlocked I thought that they changed that in both games

8

u/nyasiaa Oct 03 '22

that would be the most pointless change ever, new players should be focusing on not dying rather than picking spells. ghost heal every game, ashe darius annie malphite every game. wouldn't hurt of course, but changes nothing either.

games at that level will not be decided by having less exp or anything like that, there should be no roles and there are no roles. if there is a jungle in one team and no jungle in another team, it's not because one team has access to smite, it's because one team has a smurf. I don't think you realise how terrible new players are at the game, and how terrible it'd be if they had to jungle.

3

u/squeezy102 Oct 03 '22

Been saying this for literal years. Upvoted.

4

u/CokeNmentos Oct 03 '22

Nah because new ppl dont know how to do jungle

3

u/onlyirelia1 Oct 03 '22

How will they learn

1

u/CokeNmentos Oct 03 '22

I'd assume just the normal way of learning that already exists

4

u/drashy_ PMForFizzLewds (5 served) Oct 02 '22

Riot doesn't give a fuck

1

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22

wild to be reminded how far behind PC league is on quality of life even though it's the moneymaker.

smite is available at level 1 in Wild Rift, and not only that, but it's required for someone on the team to have it.

there's also a jungle tutorial.

1

u/Heroiccrayfish Oct 03 '22

That’s really interesting actually, thank you for sharing.

1

u/Zreks0 Oct 03 '22

League is basically an abandoned game but its not actually abandoned the devs just act as if it was

1

u/Oleandervine Oct 03 '22

I strongly disagree. I think having people learn lanes first helps immensely with the new player experience, because they don't generally have to worry about unexpected players showing up and just kicking their teeth in all the time. By not having junglers, players can comfortably learn lanes, and then be gently eased into jungler once they play some games with allies who may already be familiar with the role at later levels.

1

u/guymanfacedude Oct 03 '22

To be fair, playing Warwick is like jungle tutorial. Clears camps with ease, his passive alerts him to potential ganks, even giving him a quest trail to find the kill at the end.

1

u/Heroiccrayfish Oct 03 '22

I think what you mean to say is Warwick would make a great candidate for a jungle tutorial if one was ever made. Because I totally agree with what you are saying, but a new player will never know anything about these things unless they happen to buy the champ themselves currently.

2

u/guymanfacedude Oct 03 '22

I was mostly just being silly, but you're 100% correct. If you know the basics of jungle, and how abilities work, warwick is super easy to understand, without at least the basics, no champ is easy in any lane.

-2

u/_ziyou_ Oct 03 '22

so why are teams forced to play without one for such incredible lengths of time?

What? Just play the tutorials and a few bot games and you have all the summoner spells. Leveling an account to level ~15 is super quick nowdays.

-14

u/Anon01234543 Oct 02 '22

The point is to acclimate new players to the game. It doesn’t take long.

13

u/Transky13 Oct 02 '22

It does take long

A new player is going to play hours of league and not even realize that jungling is an absolutely VITAL part of the game

14

u/Heroiccrayfish Oct 02 '22

It does take long though, takes like 20 something games to get access to the most essential summoner in the game to have on a team.

It's just weird that Jungle is an officially recognized role, but it's gate kept behind a time wall.

1

u/patiofurnature Oct 03 '22

New accounts play bot games, and bots don’t jungle. I remember being low level and it was awful when your teammate insisted on jungling because then you had to 1v2 top.

If they want all levels to jungle, they need to make bots that can jungle. And honestly, that just doesn’t seem worth the effort.

0

u/KingR12 Oct 03 '22

Whatever happened to just... learning the game? I remember that I first started playing everyone just did 2v2 top lane. Then when you unlocked Smite people would start experimenting with jungle. Not everything needs to be immediately available, especially because the game's hard enough to learn as is.

0

u/lux123or Oct 03 '22

I have no sympathy for smurfs.